We are looking at a boat storage facility in the northeast. The facility is 42-ft high storing fiberglass boats. It's unheated. The owner doesn't want in rack sprinklers, nor does he want a fire pump.
What would be the fire sprinkler design criteria for this type of facility? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
10 Comments
I'm working on a project with a very extensive horizontal standpipe; it is about 2000 feet long and in a loop, so almost 5,000 linear feet when all said and done.
Where can I find guidance on providing expansion joints? Due to the system being so long, we're worried about providing some flexibility in the instance of extreme temperature swings (Virginia). Would seismic flexible joints be appropriate? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Sorry if this is too location-specific, but I have a question I'd like to get other designer/engineer input on. The Chicago Building Code (Section 15-16-600) specifically has their own density/area requirements, with a minimum of 0.10 gpm over 1,500 sqft for NFPA 13 applications.
Does this mean that they do not accept residential sprinklers (most demanding 4 adjacent residential sprinklers)? Do they also not accept the area reductions for quick-response sprinklers? Based on the requirement in the code they certainly have the ability/right to override NFPA 13, I just haven't seen any other jurisdiction overrule the allowances in NFPA 13 and was curious if this holds up for other installers in the area. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A question for the pump experts on the forum; the line of horizontal split-case fire pumps I'm familiar with generally come as 1770 RPM or 3560 RPM.
What is the benefit to using one versus the other? Do contractors generally have a preference? Is cost, sounds, wear-and-tear impacted by the RPM selection? Thanks in advance. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe During a hotel stay in NYC over the weekend I noticed the combination standpipe included a 3" pressure reducing valve just upstream of the 3" zone control assembly.
An indicating valve was not installed on the inlet side of the Cla-Val (model 90G-21 with no pressure gauges). A filler piece between the PRV outlet and the butterfly valve included a pressure gauge which was at 60 psi. The 2-1/2" fire hose valve was standard pressure and the express drain was only 2". This arrangement is not something I would expect to see in the DC metro area, but is it typical of NYC? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a combination sprinkler/standpipe riser through floor-level landings in a stairwell of our building. There is a project requirement to provide a pipe sleeve and "required clearance per NFPA 13".
NFPA 13 gives very clear guidance on clearances in Section 9.3 (NFPA 13 2016 Edition), but that doesn't apply to this project as it is not required to be designed for seismic (Seismic Design Category B). Where can I determine what clearance needs to be between the pipe and the hole in the concrete stairwell floors/ceilings? I'm not seeing any clearance requirement, but I surely could be missing something. Thanks in advance! Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Big picture question here - I am working on an airport project. We have a Passenger Terminal Building and Aircraft Stands adjacent to the building.
I need to provide sprinkler protection with fire hose cabinets in the Passenger Terminal Building (1,000 gpm at 8 bar / 100 psi), AND fire hydrants to resupply the aircraft rescue and firefighting trucks (1,500 gpm at 6 bar / 87 psi). Do both of these demands need to be considered together to size the fire pump (both flows combined)? We are considering one duty pump and one standby pump. Thanks in advance. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe NFPA 25 requires a legible Hydraulic Information Sign.
How do I replace a missing Hydraulic Placard (or calculation plate/card) on an existing system? And what if there isn't original design information available? I'm curious to see how others are addressing this deficiency. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Per NFPA 13D 2019 Edition Section 8.2.1.3, "Concealed Sprinklers shall be permitted to be installed in beams not greater than 4 in. (100mm) in depth."
Semi-recessed heads can be permitted to be installed in beams up to 14in. Why do concealed sprinklers installed in beamed applications have a 4 inch limitation? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Have a 4-story townhouse, sprinklered in accordance with 13R.
Is a sprinkler at the top of an elevator shaft an acceptable trade off for a 1-hour rating of the shaft (in lieu of a 2-hour rating)? NFPA 13R, 2013 Section 6.6.6 says sprinklers are not required in non-combustible elevator shafts in accordance with ANSI 17.1. The state is says they will not certify the elevator/does not require a certificate in a residential elevator, so there is no confirmation that the elevator code is upheld. If the sprinkler is an acceptable trade off (or if the sprinkler is elected to be installed in excess of the code requirements) is then a shunt trip and flow switch/heat detector required to shut off power in the event of a sprinkler activation? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the best way to cut in to an existing underground line that may have a thrust block at the end?
We are doing a project that has scope to retrofit an 8" backflow into an existing approximately 200' of 8" underground. There is an existing detector check valve in the line which will be removed. Because of the age of the building and underground (about 30 years old) it is assumed the piping has a thrust block at the end. But with cutting into the line and adding a couple 90 degree elbows to get the backflow above ground there is fear that the line may slip back to the water main because the thrust block at the end of the 200' run is no longer holding the entire line in place. We are planning to add a thrust block to the new 90s, but the issue is that there is only a shut off valve that is in the straight line of the 200' of pipe. If we shut that valve, there will still be pressure on the front side of the valve and when we cut into the pipe, the pipe may slip. Any suggestions on securing the pipe on the supply side of the new backflow or limiting the pressure prior to the concrete being poured on the elbows for the backflow? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Have a kitchen exhaust "ecological unit" which filters oil, grease, dust particles, and smoke odor from a kitchen hood exhaust system.
Are there requirements for how to be protect the unit? I'm not sure whether sprinklers would be required within the unit as I'm unfamiliar with these. Any guidance or tips from those who've worked with these before would be appreciated. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am looking at a sprinkler relocation-job were food is to be packaged. They are installing a drop ceiling above the packaging equipment.
I am having a hard time finding a concealed sprinkler head to spec out that has a metal temperature element and a rubber dust cover that is suitable for an ordinary hazard space. The VK538 jumped to mind but they do not offer a rubber gasket for the plate. I just found the TY5521 that says it comes with a rubber dust seal. Do FDA-grade facilities require dust cover gaskets? Does adding a dust cover ring to a escutcheon de-list the product? Thanks in advance. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe There is a confusing discrepancy between NFPA 13's ban on hanging 1.25" and greater pipe to bare metal deck versus the availability of UL listed anchors with a test load of 850 lb (that is the number for the 3/8" Sammy XP 20).
I don't understand how something that has passed such rigorous testing could be forbidden by the code. Does anybody have any background knowledge on this subject? On top of this, I don't understand the configuration required for this application by NFPA 13. It says anchorage needs to be provided by "punching the vertical portion of the metal deck and using through bolts." (2016 Ed. 9.2.1.4.1) I don't know how to visualize this arrangement and there are no details or photos in the handbook. Does anyone know what this is supposed to look like? I've tried reaching out to NFPA's technical resources and have not gotten a response. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Would an auto lift fall under the same rules as an elevator? I cannot find any specific code regarding this situation.
The main (ground-floor) level drives straight into the upper position for a car lift. The car lift can take the cars down into a basement parking level. I was going to install a dry ordinary hazards horizontal sidewall sprinkler at the top and bottom as a standard elevator. I am waiting for the architectural details at this time. I appreciate any input you may have. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are others experiencing AHJ's requiring that sprinklers placed in ceiling tiles directly adjacent to HVAC ceiling tile diffusers either be moved to at least 2'-6" away or replaced with intermediate-temperature rated sprinklers?
I am primarily referring to the vane style horizontal discharge diffusers you see in almost every office building, typically with an ordinary-temperature rated sprinkler in the center of an adjacent tile, only 1 ft. away. Referencing NFPA 13, 2019 Edition, A.8.3.2.5: A diffuser in ceiling sheathing labeled by the manufacturer as "horizontal discharge" has directional vanes to move air further along the ceiling, and sprinklers located within the 2 ft. 6 in. (750 mm) radius should have an intermediate-temperature rating. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How do you engrave your hydraulic calculation signs, general information signs, etc.?
We use a hand held Dremel engraver which, while functional, is not a fun experience. I have seen some contractors who have perfectly imprinted engravings on their plates and I wondered if they used a machine, sent it to a company, or some other solution? Our engravings tend to look sloppy. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are working on a hospital project where the underground service pipe to the pump room was buried at 4 feet (1.2 m). Are we required to provide a concrete sleeve or any special concrete provisions to protect the HDPE pipe?
Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'm laying out heads on a project that has large ceiling clouds that do not meet the requirements for sprinkler omission. I do have heads in the lower ceilings. The clouds are within 18" of the deflector for the upper ceiling.
How do I space the sprinklers above the clouds since the spray pattern is disrupted? Many of the clouds are wider than my allowed max distance between heads. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Split case pump - flow meter installation question:
As indicated in NFPA 20, the distance from the flowmeter to either isolation valve should be as recommended by the meter manufacturer. Based on your own experience, do fittings (elbows or bends) need to be included in this distance calculation? For example - should the distance recommendation length of 10-diameters be calculated from the last fitting or is the fitting ignored and only calculated from the isolation valve? Thank you. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does anybody have a reliable and accurate formula to figure out the flow through the 3" gang drain for a high rise standpipe with PRVs?
This to size the floor drain properly and to pass along to the plumber. Also, when draining a system, you only drain one system per floor at a time when needed. The annual testing of PRVs, would be the worst case scenario in my opinion...250 gpm out of each. The 500 gpm at the roof should be handled by the Rain storm drains, right? Thank you kindly. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe This project has a canopy. It canopy is not attached to the building. The building is required to have a sprinkler system installed in accordance with IBC 903.3.1.1 (an NFPA 13 system) in order to increase the allowable building area.
The canopy is providing weather protection for transit passengers. It's Type II-B, non-combustible, and made of steel, concrete, and metal panels. The canopy is also very large, and on its own exceeds the allowable area for a non-sprinklered Group A-3 occupancy. Do the provisions of NFPA 13-2016 Section 8.15.7.2 (copied below) allow for an omission of sprinklers from an exterior canopy as described here? 8.15.7.2* Sprinklers shall be permitted to be omitted where the exterior canopies, roofs, porte-cocheres, balconies, decks, and similar projections are constructed with materials that are noncombustible, limited-combustible, or fire retardant–treated wood as defined in NFPA 703, or where the projections are constructed utilizing a noncombustible frame, limited combustibles, or fire retardant–treated wood with an inherently flame-resistant fabric overlay as demonstrated by Test Method 2 in accordance with NFPA 701. A.8.15.7.2 Vehicles that are temporarily parked are not considered storage. Areas located at drive-in bank windows or porte-cocheres at hotels and motels normally do not require sprinklers where there is no occupancy above, where the area is entirely constructed of noncombustible or limited combustible materials or fire retardant–treated lumber, and where the area is not the only means of egress. However, areas under exterior ceilings where the building is sprinklered should be protected due to the occupancy above. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Have a project that is a large ESFR warehouse with many storage bays and many zoned systems. About every 150 to 200 feet is a 1-1/2 inch hose valve that is tied to the overhead system with 1-inch pipe drops.
What is the purpose for these? Where is the code basis? We may be modifying some of these areas with new work and I want to be sure we're upkeeping code, but I'm not familiar with the purpose of these hose valves. Thanks in advance. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe One of the frustrating non real-world things in consulting is that on the contracting side, 99.9% of the time we start at flange inside the building. Red-line the contract if needed, or work out an informal deal with the underground contractor.
On the consulting/engineering side we have this whole underground spec section, just for five-feet out, including tracing wire and tape, testing offsite soils, soils disposal, shoring, compaction, size of rock, etc. I understand the civil engineers will only take it to five feet. I’ve asked my people why we can't just match reality and just start inside the building? I am told if we did there is this 5-ft. gap that has to be claimed by someone (despite what is done in reality). Have you addressed this in your experience in any way? I am wondering how others deal with it. On the contracting side we all just made it happen. On the consulting/paperwork side, it’s hard to make the paperwork match reality. Do you even seen thrust block calcs submitted from anyone since it is part of the imaginary five-feet out? Sorry, ranting a bit, it came to mind again today because I have constructability comments from the architect that recognized that in this particular case, the AHJ permit covers from the flange, their solution is to have my spec cover the entire fire line. I’m not comfortable with that. Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When is the auto ball-drip required on the hookup (dry) side of the check valve for a Fire Department Connection?
In areas prone to freezing, there is the FDC, then a dry portion of pipe, then the check valve. If the check valve is located higher than the FDC (as is typical for our FDCs near risers), can't the connection itself drain the dry portion? Posted anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
ALL-ACCESSSUBSCRIBESubscribe and learn something new each day:
COMMUNITYTop June '24 Contributors
YOUR POSTPE EXAMGet 100 Days of Free Sample Questions right to you!
FILTERS
All
ARCHIVES
July 2024
PE PREP SERIES |