Having trouble getting a good feel for fire sprinkler design criteria for compact, mobile storage shelves. These contain Class I-IV commodities. As I understand it, NFPA 13 only covers light hazard for compact shelving.
The metal shelves have a height of 8-feet, the ceiling height is 26-feet. The room is 3,000 sqft, and the shelves have a footprint within that space of 21 x 30 feet. Any help is appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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We have a four-story project that uses NFPA 13R - 2016 Edition. There are balconies with wood structure that are getting sprinkler protection. The building is in a cold climate.
I'm trying to figure out how to correctly incorporate these balcony sprinklers in the hydraulic calculations while still being efficient in the sprinkler design (there's no fire pump on this and poor city supply). As I understand it in NFPA 13R, my options are: (1) NFPA 13R for Dwelling Unit Calculation: use dry-sidewall residential sprinklers (Reliable and Tyco have some) for the balcony. This would then be a 0.05 gpm/sqft calculation over a compartment, up to four sprinklers. (2) NFPA 13R for Outside of Dwelling Unit: use dry-sidewall quick response sprinkler for balcony. This would be a 0.10 gpm/sqft calculation for four adjacent sprinklers. The inside sprinklers could still be 0.05 gpm/sqft (per 13R), but the balcony sprinklers need to be 0.10 gpm/sqft (per 13R 7.2.2, 7.2.3). (3) If the balcony is under 500 sqft and meets a string of conditions, then dry-sidewall quick response sprinklers for the balcony can be for the compartment, up to four sprinklers (per 13R 7.2.3.1). We don't meet this here, because there are large glass slider doors over 50 sqft. Are there other options here, or is my approach for the first two options appropriate? I could very well be overthinking this. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a 40-foot tall steel construction building, with lumber strapped and stacked, stored in 20-foot high solid piles.
The building is unheated. The building owner has been told by another fire sprinkler contractor that this will require ESFR sprinklers. The owner would prefer a dry pipe system. We have researched NFPA 13, 2019 edition. It looks as if Chapters 20 and 21 will allow a dry pipe system for this application using CMDA sprinklers. Anyone else have experience with a scenario like this? What path would you recommend? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a small project (13,800 sqft total) which is a four-story, all residential apartment building, using mostly CPVC pipe. The system is under NFPA 13R.
The city supply is very poor, so we will have a fire pump that meets NFPA 20 (as is required by 13R). The pump is an 8-HP, 70 PSI at 75 GPM. Is a jockey pump necessary with such a small fire pump? Normally, for our large commercial NFPA 13 projects, a jockey pump is not even a discussion because we don't want the main fire pump (500 - 1,500 gpm) cycling on just to support system maintenance pressure. For such a small project with a significantly smaller fire pump, is there any harm in not providing a jockey pump? The question is not based on cost - the pump room is microscopic and we're already having trouble fitting in all the equipment and controllers as is. Appreciate you all - thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe This question pertains to hydraulic calculations at the supply and sprinkler sides of a deluge system:
Our example using rough numbers; the deluge system requires 4,000 gpm based on density requirements through the building. This is the system demand. Now suppose you have a strong water supply. The water supply actually provides 8,000 gpm based on main capacity testing. This is the system supply. Now my question is, the pipe is wet up to the deluge valve. There is about 50-feet between the deluge valve and the hazard. It is understood that the system demand is 4,000 gpm, but within the pipe network, is it necessary to size the pipe for a deluge system based on 8,000 gpm on the supply side? Until the water begins discharging through the deluge nozzles, the 8,000 gpm will be surging through the pipe network to reach the nozzles, correct? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there a minimum distance clearance required or recommended from the fire sprinkler and the top of a stacked washer dryer in small closet?
What is the reason for the clearance needed? I heard that 4” is needed for the clearance rather than the standard 18” in a public area. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am building out a space that has been vacant for multiple years. The space has a hydraulic elevator that travels 1 floor. There is a sub that is ushering the elevator contractor through the certificate milestone with all the adjacent trades.
He has proposed to change out the Class III-B hydraulic fluid with a Hydro-Safe or equivalent non-combustible fluid in order to work around the NFPA 13 requirement for a pit sprinkler and pit detection to be installed. My question is, does swapping the petrol-based fluid to a bio-equivalent have any long-term effects on the pump, pistol, seals, gaskets, etc.? Also, how do I make sure this is the fluid that remains in use for the life of the certificate? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project that includes a 3,500 sqft unheated loading dock. We're in the initial design stages of the project.
Based on your experience would you recommend we specify a heat trace or dry pipe sprinkler system for the loading dock? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project where the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) is requiring zone control valves and dedicated pipe from the standpipe to any IT rooms and sprinklers in elevator shafts.
As a result, we have three zone controls for each floor: (1) the floor sprinkler system, (2) IT rooms, and (3) any sprinklers in elevator shafts. Is there a code or standard basis for this requirement, or would it be specific to the AHJ? We're doing the work either way for this project since the AHJ is requiring it, but I would like to know for future projects. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I was wondering if maybe there are some calculators or wizards that guide a selection of CMDA sprinklers for storage applications.
We work with multiple standards (Vds, EN, NFPA) and sometimes it takes a long time to find the right point on the curve out of NFPA 13. It would be great to have a tool to verify that density and multipliers were all chosen properly. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If a fire sprinkler systems is designed for "life safety" purposes, should not a primary and standby fire pump be provided? Why are standby pumps not required to improve reliability for these systems?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a building with a double check backflow assembly on the suction side of a fire pump. Normally there is a minimum of 10 pipe diameters of vertical plane pipe just before the suction flange.
Is the double check backflow allowed within that distance? Are there requirements for the backflow to have flanges vs. grooved connections? A colleague said the control valve should be OS&Y rather than butterfly on the suction side only. Why would this be the case? I would assume the OS&Y would reduce turbulence better than a butterfly, but wouldn't the checks also cause turbulence? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have an exhaust system serving a welding and metal fabrication lab at a school. They will utilize 70% ferrous metal and the remaining will be a mixture of stainless steel, coated steel and aluminum.
The largest duct diameter at the building exit is 30" round. The dust collector will be located on the exterior of the building and in a freezing environment. Will I need to provide fire suppression within the ductwork both inside and outside as well as within the dust collector? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am currently working on an existing high rise building that requires a fully automatic sprinkler system to be added and the AHJ is requiring a water tank to be added on the property to serve as a secondary supply.
There is no room for a secondary supply. Can a pool be used to substitute a water storage tank that will supply the building through fire pumps? What codes could back up this option? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is there a maximum all-thread rod length called out in NFPA 13?
This application isn't for seismic, but a general hanger for pipes 2-inch and under in diameter. Thanks. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are working on a project where a feed main is running through an unsprinklered space to get to a sprinklered area. I've heard that sprinkler pipe needs to be protected by sprinklers so we are trying to figure out if this is an actual requirement or not.
We are talking about putting uprights on the feed main in the unsprinklered area to protect the pipe but I can't find anything in NFPA 13 that actually requires the pipe to be protected. Does anyone know if this is a requirement or not? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When would you consider an obstruction no longer an obstruction, vertically below an ESFR sprinkler?
If the top of storage has to be 36" wouldn't 36" be the cut off? Or do the obstruction rules go the floor? I have a warehouse that has 2 x 4 light fixtures which are 6'-0" below the roof deck, and am wondering whether these are considered obstructions. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Regarding fire sprinkler system flushing of a wet-pipe gridded system; NFPA 13 Section 16.6.4 “All branch lines on gridded systems shall be arranged to facilitate flushing”.
We are doing a project which has more than 50 branches in a gridded system. Do all these branch lines need to be provided with a flushing capability? How is this commonly achieved? FM Global data sheets say to provide a small nipple between two flexible couplings, assuming removal of the nipple to flush the lines. Are there alternatives to this? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a project with a typical compressed air dry sprinkler system in an unconditioned attic space (site is at 44 deg latitude). The system is 22 years old.
Site maintenance person reports that they've had issues with this system for at least 15 years. Frequent and repeated leaks, predominately pin holes in the mains. They try to repair before the system gets wet, although not always in time. They recently replaced a 3 inch main and found that it was about 30% filled with sludge. Sludge was dark brown, almost clay like, sludge. Any thoughts on how such a large volume of sludge can accumulate in a dry system? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have been asked if a 20+ year old wet pipe sprinkler system we installed into a paint application room is the correct method of protection for a specific paint product that is currently being used.
The MSDS sheets for a few of the products they now use indicate protection with dry chemical, foam, or water fog. I have been told that the MSDS sheets typically refer to the product as its being stored and not necessarily as its being applied. The storage is not happening in this room of course, but in approved fire-rated storage cabinets outside the area. None of the typical requirements for alternate protection are met per NFPA 33. Basically other than the product data sheets, this is a run of the mill paint application area. Nothing automated or fancy. Anyone have any experience with a similar situation? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When applying NFPA 13R to a mixed-occupancy (R-2 and S-2) building, what is the definition of "incidental"?
The building in question is three stories of residential over a parking garage designated for residents only. Each residential floor is approximately 2,000 sqft and the garage is approximately 3,000 sqft. The building is type V-A (wood, combustible) throughout. IBC 2015 Section 509 defines incidental as constituting less than 10% of a given floor. Does this entire building require a full NFPA 13 system? If possible, please provide a code basis, thank you! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe My question is when the discussion of dirty sprinkler heads comes up I get told only lint , hair and fuss count.
What I see quite often is discoloring from what I assume oil running down the pipe to the head. I also often see the red glass turned to black or gray. Do these sprinklers need to be cleaned, and if so, how is it done? Air or vacuumed doesn’t always work. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In NFPA 13 (2007 Edition) Section 8.15.5.5 is the term "passenger elevator" specifically different from a Freight Elevator?
NFPA 13 Section states that sprinklers are not required for noncombustible hoistways where the car enclosure meets ASME A17.1, but it states specifically "passenger elevators". Does this mean that a hydraulic freight elevator will definitely need a sprinkler at the top and at the bottom of the shaft? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are inspecting an existing fire sprinkler building for an upgrade to an Extra Large Orifice (ELO) system.
We performed a hydrant flow test and noticed a 14 psi static loss between the hydrant, 185-ft of 8-inch ductile, 2 elbows and 8 feet of elevation rise to the supply side of the RPZ backflow preventer. We recorded 73 psi at hydrant and 59 psi at the number 1 test cock on the RPZ while static. I spoke with the water authority and they confirmed no meter or check valve on the 8" fire line; it is straight into the valve room plus 2 elbows. The building is 20 years old and the pump test provided 120% of rated capacity. Any idea how the static pressure inside the building is 14 psi less? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project where we're not sure about how to address protection of movable storage racks.
The cold storage facility requires a double-interlock pre-action system where the temperature can reach down to -4 deg F (-20 deg C). The storage consists of movable racks, 39 feet (12 m) tall, with a roof height of 46 feet (14 m). Our biggest concern would avoiding in-rack sprinklers, since the racks are intended to be moveable. Our understanding is that NFPA 13 considers movable racks as multiple row racks but there's not clear guidance there. We looked into ESFR as an option, but believe ESFR are not listed to be used with a pre-action system. Is there a recommended solution/design path for ceiling-only protection on a double-interlock pre-action system? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Discuss This | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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