We have an AHJ that is requiring a sprinkler be located in a grease exhaust duct - but I'm finding it difficult to see where this would be required (reviewed NFPA 96 and 13).
The duct serves a Type I kitchen hood, has an Ansul suppression system, and then has a roughly 45 foot run to exhaust to the outside. We haven't come across a requirement for a duct run like this before, is it required? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe
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Does anyone have a good resource for determining audibility loss (dB loss) through various door types? I recall seeing a reference chart that was perhaps printed in a fire alarm handbook in the 90's, but I don't have a copy.
Intelligibility is a world all on it's own - if we need intelligibility I typically locate a speaker on the opposite side of closed doors (private offices, for instance). Is there a way I can model or predict intelligibility through closed doors? I've tried Ease EVAC years ago using door gaps, but it wasn't well suited to model the losses at that time. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe I'm working on a project and need your very brief help. This link has a four-questions that take only 30 seconds to answer. It'll be a huge help for me on this project and in improving the site going forward.
As a thank you for completing the survey I'm doing a drawing for a 1-Year Toolkit Subscription and a Free Copy of the 2018 PE Prep Guide (it's great as a reference book). This drawing is free and no purchase is required. Answer the four-questions here: A garage within a small commercial building has radiant heat only. Since radiant heaters do not warm the air but rather only any physical object that is in the direct path of heat transfer, I've never relied upon them for maintaining correct temperature around a fire sprinkler system.
Have you used radiant heat to maintain temperature in a wet system? NFPA 13 (2016 Edition) 8.16.4.1.1 calls for temperature reliably maintained at or above 40 degrees F (4 deg C) for a wet system, which I would not believe would be the case for radiant heat. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe Where can I find information on how much flow each type of fire department connection can handle (siamese, 4" Storz, or 5" Storz)? Is this provided in a standard, or manufacturers data?
Also, does just about every fire department have the ability to connect to Storz? I've heard from many departments that the FDC type depends on the flow of the building, which leads me to believe that many departments can connect to any type of FDC. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe I work for an engineering consultant and we often do work directly with university and healthcare clients that expect an estimate as part of the deliverable package.
I typically track square footage costs whenever I receive them (on past projects), but even that is rare. I've since transitioned to using RS Means unit cost pricing and adjusting for location and historical cost increases. For others doing cost estimation, have you found relative accuracy using RS Means? Are there other estimating providers that are better suited for cost estimating in our industry? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe Does anyone have successful experience with routing a fire sprinkler drain and/or inspector's test to a mop sink?
I have a client that has a 12" deep mop sink in a janitor's closet which the contractor is asking to as the discharge for an inspector's test. I suspect that with the pressures on the system (~120 psi) and a typical 1/2" orifice, that the flow will be roughly 60 gpm (=5.6 x sqrt (120)). We are recommending a 4" plumbing standpipe to accept the inspector's test if a drain riser can't be routed to the exterior separately. What are your thoughts? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe We traditionally have specified closed wye-delta transition starters for electric fire pumps on our projects. The fire pumps typically consist of horizontal split-case electric pumps between 500 and 1,500 gpm.
In the past, we've felt that the closed wye-delta starter offered a good balance of cost (less than soft-start but more than open delta wye) against the impact it has on backup generator sizing (helps generators size more than an open-wye delta but not as much as soft start). Is soft-start still significantly more expensive than delta-wye closed transition starters? I am hearing that the cost of soft-starters may have come down significantly and we try to be open-minded to what the industry is offering if we're in the wrong. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe For hydraulic safety factors (such as in fire sprinkler systems), determining whether a 5 psi safety factor is met in a design is easy. The Available Pressure must be greater than Required Pressure + 5 PSI.
However, for percentage safety factors such as 5% or 10%, is the percentage calculated based on the Required Pressure or Available Pressure? As an example, if we have a system that requires 80 psi and the available city pressure of 88 psi, a 10% safety factor on the required pressure would be 80 psi x 10% = 8 psi safety required. In this case the minimum is met. However, a 10% safety factor on the available pressure is 88 psi x 10% = 8.8 psi safety required. In this case, the safety factor is not met. This is an extreme example, but I'm curious what others would use when looking at determining safety factors. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe You all rock! Thanks for helping make this space helpful for others by sharing your unique perspectives. Here's the top commenters from March:
A laundry room for a hotel contains large commercial dryers. These dryers appear to have internal fire suppression systems that require a 3/4-inch water hookup with a flexible hose.
Based just on the 3/4-inch threaded hookup and flexible hose, I would presume this connection should be by domestic water, but I wanted to ask if anyone provides connections like these from the fire sprinkler system? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe I'm working on an 1880's masonry four story historic building that currently has no fire sprinkler system. We're looking to retrofit a fire sprinkler system and we're looking into any and all ideas for concealing the pipe but keeping the historic charm.
This building itself has concrete beams with 'tin' ceilings in-between. We're considering building down false beams, furring out entire walls, and potentially soffits to help conceal pipe. For those who have complete sprinkler retrofit designs for historic buildings, what tips or methods have you used to make your projects successful? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe Other than the Contractor's Material and Test Certificate for Aboveground Piping (NFPA 13) and System Record of Completion (NFPA 72), where can I find a good procedures for acceptance testing for fire sprinkler and fire alarm systems?
Is there a step by step approach that I can add to for my particular project? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe
There's likely to be a wide perspective on the value of engineer-provided sprinkler layouts on plans that delegate the full-design to the fire sprinkler contractor. Do you feel they provide benefit? Take the poll and comment below.
[Don't see the poll below? Click here.] A middle school is being expanded by two classrooms and about six small offices and supports spaces. The addition is separated by a fire barrier from the main school, and the existing school has a temporal-3 horn/strobe fire alarm system throughout (and is fully-sprinklered).
Current code requires an emergency voice/alarm communication system for the expansion, which the design team intends to provide. The question is how to address the interaction between the new voice system and the existing? Is this purely and AHJ call? Ideally, the school should consider upgrading their entire fire alarm system to voice for a cohesive message and best benefit. However, funding is very tight and we're not confident they'll have the support they need to do a full upgrade at this time. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe Have you had AHJ’s request FPE seals on hood fire suppression systems often? It’s in the letter of UFC 3-600-01 (this is a US military project) but has not come up before for us.
Do you have an opinion on what needs to happen if the system (or the majority of it) is factory installed in the hood? Can it be treated as part of the UL listed assembly? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe I have a 4,000 sq. ft. covered play area at an elementary school. The covered play is non-combustible / no storage.
Should sprinklers be required here? I am being told by the city that code requires sprinklers because of it being a group E occupancy (Educational) but I can’t find anything in IBC, IFC, or NFPA to support that. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe A flexible sprinkler armover is serving a sprinkler in a suspended ceiling, and connects through a gypsum wall to the branchline.
Is there anything that prohibits the flexible drop from running through the wall? Is a clearance required through that wall? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe From Joe: I haven't had as many questions posted recently by members, so if you have a question you'd like to see posted on the Daily forum, email them to me at [email protected]. Thanks & I look forward to hearing from you!
We occasionally have inadvertent fire alarm activations that we can't get to stop until a fire alarm company arrives to correct the issue at the facility where I work. Are we permitted to turn off the alarm and conduct a fire watch during this time instead?
Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe A security wall (under standard ICD/ICS 705) details the technical specifications for a SCIF wall (sensitive compartmented information facility). As part of the specifications, there must be a dielectric break when penetrating the wall (this helps break up any electronic transmission along the pipe). This can be done using a dielectric union, flange or coupling, but it must be listed for UFC 4-010-05 (section 3-5.8.2) for military applications.
Is there a product that acts as a dielectric break that meets this specification? If this can't be accomplished with a dielectric break, the standard calls for grounding but does not detail how to ground the pipe. Can this just be done with grounding a single point? Has anyone used this method before? Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe Our first Daily question of the day that includes a photo. Here goes -
I was surveying/inspecting a facility and came across a riser component that I am not familiar with, at least in the way this one appears. The riser room is located in a basement, and the white drain goes to a sump, then is connected to drain pipe. I have never seen this arrangement before. The question is what is the stainless steel hose going to that says “spring loaded”? ...one of these days I gotta find time to hang out with a sprinkler contractor or FPE…. From Joe Meyer:
Are you an expert in NFPA 22 and water storage tanks for fire protection systems? Are you interested in beta testing a new tool under development? I'm working on a new water storage tank tool and I'm seeking input and feedback from those who are familiar with and regularly work on water storage tanks. If you're knowledgeable, interested, and willing to provide feedback on this new tool, please email me at [email protected]. Thanks in advance! I have a healthcare building owner (five story building) who is doing a small remodel to about a third of a single floor. The existing sprinkler system is being modified (relocated and demo/new sprinklers) to accommodate the wall and ceiling changes.
The existing building is Seismic Design Category D, requiring seismic bracing, but the existing system has none. My recommendation to the owner (which aligns with their insurer's recommendation) is for retrofit of the whole floor if not the whole building. The owner is looking to provide seismic bracing on only the system being modified. Does this provide any benefit at all? My concern is that without adequate bracing what is provided could possibly provide zero benefit or even make the system worse if part is fixed and another is not. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe A fire sprinkler system for a single building requires a tank for water storage as there is only a well at this project's remote site. We're considering using a diesel pump with a pump house adjacent to an aboveground water storage tank.
What type of fire pump would you recommend for this scenario? The building is only Ordinary Hazard Group 1, so I'm expecting an approximate pump size of 500 gpm, 75 psi, 50 HP. There will not be much suction pressure since the water storage tank will not be pressurized. Posted anonymously by a member for discussion. Discuss this | Submit a Question | Subscribe |
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