What concerns should I have about hanging from old wood? Like very old wood, almost petrified? I'm doing an NFPA 13R job for an old historic building that has been moved. I don't know how old, but it uses full dimension wood. The 2x's look like they measure 2-inches thick.
I'm wondering what hanging to this old dry wood is going to be like? Do they need to predrill? Are screws better? Any ideas appreciated! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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What are the physical or regulatory concerns of leaving an older dry pipe valve as wet for an extended amount of time?
This would be during the non-freezing months. I can think of the alarm trim - water gong changed to electric, clapper gasket integrity, and the inevitable leaks in the overhead system. Curious on other perspectives, thank you! I am working on a project with a new client who develops multi-level Self Storage Facilities.
The typical units are 10'x20' with 8-ft bent metal purlin dividing walls. The walls do not extend to the ceiling deck which is 11'-6" above finished floor. All sorts of household items are being stored, which can include exposed expanded foam mattresses that are greater than 5-ft in height when on their side. The tenants are limited in storage height to 8-ft because of 14 gauge metal wire netting above the units. On previous projects the client has been permitted to classify the hazard as OH2 (possibly because of the definition in NFPA 13, 5.3.2. 2016 edition, which includes contents with high-heat release rates up to 8-ft). The question is whether or not it should be Extra Hazard Group 1 or Extra Hazard Group 2? I am leaning towards EH1. The occupancy is a storage facility so I believe we fall into Chapter 12 for our design requirements. Because we have exposed expanded plastics stored greater than 5-ft we cannot be considered Low-Piled (Chapter 13). Therefore we fall into Chapter 15. Using NFPA13 Table 15.2.2.5(a) and the decision tree, selecting plastic commodities, Group A, Expanded, Exposed, Unstable, I believe the Density would be 0.30 gpm/sqft. This would be EH1. I am using NFPA13, 2016 edition. Can anyone speak to how they would classify the hazard (design area and density) for this type of storage facility? Should it be OH2, EH1 or EH2? Thank you. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a customer who is building a storage building that includes flammable liquids.
The liquids are Class I-B flammable (as classified under NFPA 30). I understand that there are limits for the quantity that is allowed within one control area. The Maximum Allowable Quantity (MAQ) is 120 gallons, from NFPA 30 tables. The reading can be increased 100% when a sprinkler system is used. So the limit increases to 240 gallons with sprinkler protection. The number can increase even more when stored in approved liquid storage cabinets or safety cans, which I assume the customer would prefer. So the final MAQ becomes 240 gallons x 2 = 480 gallons. The biggest storage room is 2,000 square feet and the customer wants to exceed the MAQ to be above 480 gallons in that storage room. I have understood that exceeding the MAQ is permitted if the building is classified as an H-3 Occupancy (High Hazard). This occupancy applies more restrictive requirements. Is there any numerical value for a new MAQ limit in that case? My current path is as follows: Class I-B liquid storage in Storage occupancy > maximum MAQ exceeded > building re-classified as H-3 Occupancy > but where is the new MAQ? Thanks in advance for your input. I usually design under SFS and CEA standards, and they don't have the same MAQ concept within those standards. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Thanks to everyone for another great month on the forum, and a shout out to our top ten forum contributors for March 2023 below as well! Perhaps it's just my own anecdotal experience, but it sure seems like we have lots more involvement and through discussions here than we have ever had before. I very much enjoy the company.
- Joe Does a fire pump on an NFPA 13D system require backup power?
It seems like it should, but 13D does not say that it has to and does not reference NFPA 20. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Would the rack storage of non-encapsulated, Group A, unexpanded plastic commodities, stored in solid plastic containers (totes), be considered cartoned or exposed?
NFPA-13 Section 3.9.1.1 defines cartoned as storage consisting of corrugated cardboard or paperboared containers fully enclosing the commodity. NFPA-13 Section 3.9.1.13 defines Exposed Group A Plastic Commodites as those plastics not in packaging or coverings that absorb water. This leads me to think that any rack storage of Group A unexpanded plastics within solid plastic containers should be considered exposed, as these are not cardboard or paperboard nor does plastic absorb water. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an NFPA 13 commercial project.
Do you allow a domestic water tap coming from an NFPA 13 fire sprinkler riser? If it is allowed, what provisions should I be looking for when reviewing a layout with this arrangement? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe This feels like a silly question, but we have high-piled, non-combustible storage, with open-grate or solid level single/double row permanent racks with Extra Hazard Group 2 overhead system.
I'm trying to identify the actual code verbiage that says nothing is required from an code/NFPA standpoint. The product is metallic car parts with no added materials, just exposed solid metal, no plastic gaskets or spacers, etc. The 2015 IFC is the highest code in my jurisdiction, so starting with that, Chapter 32 is for High-Piled "Combustible" Storage and provides no avenue for code justification. NFPA 13-2013 defines "Noncombustible Material & Automotive Components on Portable Racks" but also gives no criteria for non-combustible storage. FM Global Data Sheet 8-1 actually lists noncombustible as a commodity classification, unlike NFPA 13, but does not provide a criteria stating no coverage. Is this just the simple scenario where code or NFPA standards don't list a requirement or criteria because it just doesn't require anything? Again I feel like it's a silly question given the commodity but I believe the only rules to follow would be obstruction rules and distance from deflector to storage. Thoughts? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe With the use of CPVC, what are the limits to how much can be exposed?
I had thought that we needed to have all of the pipe concealed, and I can't see in code how this is addressed. We have a project with a temperature-controlled and insulated attic (the mechanical engineer has confirmed it will be kept above 40 degrees F year-round) in a warm climate. This is in an NFPA 13R apartment building. Is CPVC allowed to be run exposed through the combustible attic space? The attic is not sprinkler protected (NFPA 13R system, 3-story, apartments, smaller-sized project). Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe An engineering firm has insisted that a waterflow activation shutdown the HVAC system and cited NFPA 90A: A.6.4.3.
A.6.4.3 Where automatic water sprinklers are provided and zoned to coordinate with the HVAC zones, their water flow switches should initiate devices for the functions described in Chapter 6. Each floor of the building has one HVAC zone and one sprinkler zone (floor control valves). The HVAC system has the appropriate duct detectors and functions. The only instance I have experienced using flow switches for HVAC control is when there is no automatic smoke detection and the flow switch is used to start the smoke control system for that zone. What are your thoughts? Is a waterflow switch required to shutdown an HVAC system on this premise? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can HDPE ISO 4427, PE100 SDR 9 PE be used for underground water service pipe (dedicated for fire water), even though it carries no FM Approval?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does a correctional occupancy type imply secure ceilings are required?
NFPA 5000 could be interpreted as such, but as we know, it's more about the construction of the building. There is a ceilings section though so I'm unsure. If plans called for an institutional sprinkler and secure ceilings but the owner/government changes their mind and installs standard sprinklers, is there any issue or repercussion? Look forward to your interpretations. Thanks. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am currently working with a few artists that want to build an installation in the lobby of a high-rise office building. Their design includes hanging acrylic bats independently hung from wires from the ceiling at varying heights to represent a bat swarm. What started as “a couple hundred bats, 6-8 inches in size, spaced evenly throughout the lobby” has turned into 1,300 bats, up to 12 inches wide, in a fairly dense swarm. The artists and interior designers submitted this design to the AHJ without providing a final design or correspondence and were rejected (no surprise.) The rejection was based on the swarm obstructed both by being within 2 feet of the head, and the density of the bats. Additionally they are worried about the flammability of the bats and want them tested per NFPA 289 to make sure the amount of acrylic has a heat release rate of less than 100 KW.
My questions here are two-fold: 1) How would one properly protect, or space these bats, so that sprinkler protection is not an issue? At what density would hanging items like these turn into an obstruction, and once they are considered an obstruction, would the only way to solve the issue be to sprinkler both above and below the swarm? 2) Has anyone ever worked with NFPA 289? I have been looking for information on heat release rate of acrylic or any plastic in general, who would test items to the NFPA 289 standard? Or is there any information on how to properly categorize this hazard and determine if the heat release rate is less than 100 KW? Looking forward to any thoughts. Thanks. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Thanks for answering my previous questions; I have another one today.
Is the life safety electrical demand on the generator, for the electrical engineer, based on the normal-duty load (346 bhp), motor load (500 bhp), or the maximum locked-rotor road (572 bhp)? Is there a governing standard that dictates this (IFC/NFPA 20/NFPA 70)? We have a 2,000 gpm, 185 psi rated electric fire pump. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Here's a twist on the 9/28/2021 post regarding 4 or 8 sprinkler residential calcs (link here): Given an NFPA 13-2016 fully sprinklered wood framed apartment project, with residential sprinklers, and unsprinklered combustible concealed TJI spaces between floors, per Section 8.15.1.2.6 similar to this system: Spaces between joists are blocked into 160 cubic feet using the same TJI material.
Spaces are not firestopped with a minimum ½” drywall on the sides of certain TJI’s into 160 cubic foot spaces. Since the 2013 NFPA-13 came out, my understanding has been that unless we were to install ½” gypsum on the side of every few TJI’s to subdivide into 160 cubic foot spaces, an 8-sprinkler calculation is required in the occupied spaces above and below this assembly. Some have argued that since it’s a 1-hour assembly, a 4 sprinkler calculation is fine since that’s greater than a 30 minute barrier (light hazard water supply duration) as discussed in 11.2.3.1.5.1 (B). However, Annex A11.2.3.1.5.1 seems support the 8 sprinkler calculation because the assembly is the qualifying non-sprinklered area. However, in the above example, a portion of that assembly in itself provides a 30 minute barrier. It’s a 1 hour rated assembly but In this case, the bottom is 2 layers of Type X which in itself is greater than a 30 minute barrier. I’m guessing that the top with tongue and groove sheeting and 1” of gypsum would also provide at least a 30 minute barrier. Would the NFPA 13 sprinklered dwelling spaces above and below this (allowed) non-sprinklered floor/ceiling space require a 4 or 8 sprinkler calculation? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can "open parking garages" be located below high rise buildings?
If so, can the standpipes for the parking garage be manual dry and can sprinklers be omitted in the portion of the building considered an open-garage expect for the level directly below the high-rise occupancy? Trying to get some big-picture understanding here, thanks. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have very deep beam glue-laminated timber construction that just has the laminated wood exposed to below. The beams are very deep; 2'-9" deep. These form bays that are 13'-9" x 13'-9", many with smooth ceilings. The area below is light hazard. Can sidewall sprinklers be used up in these coffered areas? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
Can non-residential sprinklers be used in a NFPA 13R design?
NFPA 13R lists that residential sprinklers are permitted for use but does not list they are required to be used. My understanding is that sprinklers used in NFPA 13 for light hazard would exceed or meet sprinkler requirements within NFPA 13R On this premise, would installing a sprinkler for light hazard occupancy be exceeding NFPA 13R minimums, and thus be acceptable? We have a dry sprinkler system we are installing in a small existing dormitory built with combustible construction. We are using a NFPA 13R design approach which avoids sprinklering the attic space, with local AHJ approval. We need to have concealed sprinklers under request of the owner based on the occupancy, but there are not residential concealed dry pendent sprinklers, and the contractor is pushing to install recessed dry residential sprinklers. Thanks in advance. Does FM Global design criteria weigh in on whether skylights require protection?
Do they simply adopt the same provisions in NFPA 13 in this regard? Or is there some devation? I can't see any allowance for omission of sprinkler protection for skylights in Data Sheet 2-0. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an internal discussion agreeing to disagree, regarding protection of a non-flammable powder coating booth in a tenant building with existing sprinkler system.
We are installing a dedicated auxiliary wet system dropping down with a loop to pick up a valve for an OHII system per NFPA 33 (2016) 9.4.2 (2). Protection Automatic Systems - Powder coating operations. First Question - Section 9.2.1 and 9.7.1 indicates there must be a means to accomplish all of the following:
To accomplish the above one side of the office believes a flow switch is needed to accomplish this requirement with double set of contacts. The other side of the office contends the existing alarm system is adequate enough and if activated the main flow switch will accomplish this. The argument is if this is a dedicated auxiliary system with potential multiple tenants and requires the water flow switch for the Aux Booth System to activate per 9.2.1 and 9.7.1 as noted. Is this correct? Question 2 - if a flow switch is required to accomplish 9.2.1 there shall be a means to test with inspector's test connection or a riser manifold with a combination inspector's test & drain at the new dedicated auxiliary riser. Is that correct? There needs to be an indicating control valve per 9.4.5 operable from floor level for the Aux. Booth System. Question 3 - can the valve be chained and locked open or does this control valve need electrically supervised open.? Does there need to be a main drain for this auxiliary system? I think everyone can follow the arguments so would appreciate some responses. Much appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Is the minimum length for a remote area determined by the original Density/Area (such as 1,500 sqft so it would be 46.5 ft), or is it based on a modified/adjusted area (such as 900 sqft = 36 ft).
After doing this for years, I was trained and always took is as a given that we use the length based on the original area. I cannot seem to find an actual reference backing this up. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When calculating the number of operating sprinklers in a design area for a hydraulic calculation and where we have 2 levels of protection, do we include:
a) Both those sprinklers in the void and below the suspended ceiling in the design area; b) Just those sprinklers in the void; c) Just those sprinklers below the ceiling, or d) 50% of each? Any responses really appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a 3-story building using machine roomless elevators (MRL).
I have an inspector asking for a smoke detector at the top of an elevator shaft even though there is no sprinkler at the top of the shaft. There are roomless machine rooms on the first/ground floor lowest level. We installed smoke detectors in each of these roomless machine rooms putting the smoke/heat detector as close to the object it is protecting. There is no ceiling for these. The inspector says he wants the smoke at the top of the shaft because of the machine room at the bottom floor and says the smoke will rise and we need the detector at the top of the shaft. I wrote him a book report that NFPA 72 allows for smoke detectors to be installed close the object they are protecting. There is a sprinkler in the pit and we have a heat next to it within 24 inches. I really think that the heat in the pit should generate a recall to the alternate level and they have us shunt tripping it? Some details on the equipment location: the machinery is on the lowest-level inside the shaft. It is accessible by a man door from the side of the shaft. Because of the machine being inside the shaft, is a smoke detector required at the top of the shaft? The inspector is asking for the smoke detectors at the top of the shaft because the Machine room is in the shaft at the 1st floor. He says there is no ceiling in the machine room so he wants the smoke detector at the top of the shaft. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a job that is a non-conditioned, pre-engineered metal building that serves as essentially a shipping hub for small parts. There are approximately 34 roll back overhead doors, half on one side of the building, half on the other. We live in an area where freezing happens every year, and the coldest temperature recorded during each year averages 4.6 degrees from 2021 to 1948. The doors' tracks are installed at approximately 11'-0" AFF and the door opening is approximately 9'-6" tall. The doors are approximately 10' wide and equally spaced down the building in the 25' bays. The sprinkler system inside the building will be a dry system due to the fact it is not a heated building but we will need sprinkler protection underneath the roll back doors. I think technically speaking the code would allow Option A; a single drop to feed two HSW heads with a 1" valve for drainage per 8.16.2.5.3.2 and 8.16.2.5.3.5 (2016 NFPA13). But this would mean the owner is responsible for draining approximately 17 drains every year that are not even installed with drum drip assemblies, so tripping a system and/or yearly freeze ups could be a very real possibility. Do you guys believe this would even technically be a code accepted method of protecting under these doors from a dry system in a building with no heat? Option A: Or, Option B; run a line parallel to the exterior wall below the door, but above the door opening and do so with needing just two drum drips (one per side) which should decrease the odds of a freeze up and accidental system trips for the owner substantially in my opinion. Option B: What do you guys think? Would option A even be allowed?
Is option B the clear winner (especially with the owner in mind) even though the materials would cost more? I have attached a rough bluebeam sketch to help illustrate the two arrangements. Thank you. |
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