In the fire protection field many times (perhaps most of the time) a consulting engineer's set of plans and specifications that go out for bid are not the shop drawing/install drawing set and don't contain a full sprinkler & pipe layout.
What do you call these sets of plans? Design-Build Spec? Performance Spec? Delegated Design? Just curious what terminology you use to describe this. Also wonder if it's possibly regional too. [Moderator's Note: we've set this up as a poll. Comment below if there are options we should add. By voting you can see the results. Thanks!] ​
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I am reviewing a set of fire suppression drawings from another engineer that is working as a sub to the sprinkler contractor. We created an outline of the fire suppression requirements (a performance spec) and then the contractor hired another engineer to finish the design. The building is a 6-story wood frame residential project. There are two exit stairs each with a Class I Standpipe and 2.5-inch fire hose connection (FHC). The building is an 'L' shape and the total travel distance from one FHC to the other is approximately 300-ft (91m). There is a 2-hour fire-resistance-rated wall part way along the corridor (124-ft from one FHC, 174-ft from the other). The contractor's engineer is calling for an additional third standpipe next to the 2-hour rated wall - is this required or not? I'm not sure how to interpret Sections 7.3.2.3 and 7.3.2.3.1 of NFPA-14. The project is in BC, Canada; and we're using NFPA-14 (2013 Edition). I have attached a markup of a typical floor plan. Thanks in advance!
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe With electric vehicles taking the world by storm, how do you anticipate killing fires on these vehicles?
What elements are crucial on the firefighting side? Battery explosions can happen anytime and anywhere, but what measures should be considered? A wide question I know, but this is something I'm battling with as an AHJ. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'm working on a new ammunition manufacturing facility. NFPA 13 (2019 edition) doesn't seem to provide much guidance for this type of building.
Cartoned small arms and shotgun ammo is classified as a Class IV commodity, but it doesn't address the manufacturing. Also, Ammunition Components (bulk primers and powder) is in the list of items that's specifically not addressed by Section 20.4. NFPA 495 seems like the appropriate standard for other items regarding explosives, but it doesn't provide fire sprinkler guidance. Does anyone know where to find the appropriate fire sprinkler design criteria for this type of facility? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe [Moderator's note: since the first lithium battery question a few weeks ago, we've been flooded with more questions on the topic. We'll do our best to not overburden everyone here but still keep with the topics people are asking. As always, we're thankful for you all!]
Could anybody point out some publications that deal specifically with the ventilation of lithium-ion batteries during off-gassing and how the ventilation should be controlled? I am familiar with FM Global Loss Prevention Datasheet, and NFPA 855, and I went through some publications such as FIA, however from those I only get that there should be sufficient ventilation. I am more interested in the off-gas detection part of the design. The ventilation should be turned on and ESS turned off at the first sign of explosive gasses, but what gasses should those be? H2, CO, C2H4, CH4, or all mentioned in a combination? Not sure how to proceed in this. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We're being asked to design a fire sprinkler system to protect a golf cart storage area.
We're debating whether the protection should be Ordinary Group I or Ordinary Group II hazard. NFPA 13 (2019) calls both auto parking & showrooms a Group I hazard, and the 2022 edition continues to call showrooms a Group I, but calls auto parking garages a Group II. What do you all think? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am an architect working on a project where we're construction an air-supported structure (dome) for a school district to use as their physical education gymnasium.
The fire marshal here wants the dome fire suppressed. I told him we cannot hang water piping from the dome. What are the options to provide fire suppression inside of a air supported structure that is 180 x 135 feet? Are there alternatives, like water cannons along the perimeter? If so, what kind of costs might that suggest? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are converting an existing dry system to a wet-pipe system. The entire non-conditioned area where the system was located in is being converted to fully-conditioned.
When running the new hydraulic calculations, would you keep the 100 C-Factor or would you increase it to 120 for wet pipe? For reference the dry system has been in place for approximately 30 years. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe While doing a sprinkler inspection it was found that the main check valve for the system failed. The system was installed before backflows were mandated on sprinkler systems.
I know that a backflow preventer needs to be installed in its place, but have been unable to find any code that says it does. Anyone able to help? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can existing sprinkler heads that are no longer provide a code required purpose remain in place if the situation changes back in the future?
Situation #1: A mall tenant space that is non-combustible construction with sprinklers at the deck, then a ceiling is added with pendents for new tenant. Can the uprights remain in place for the likelihood of a future tenant that removes the drop ceiling and pendents? Situation #2: A nursing home dwelling unit closet with doors that had a pendent sprinkler. Now doors are removed and a built in shelving unit was installed with just a 3-inch gap between the top of the unit and the head. Can the head remain in place even though its not technically needed, for a time in the future when the shelfing unit may be removed and the space turned back to a closet? Currently a customer is being cited by the state saying this situation needs to be corrected. Would the heads all have to be removed? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are bidding a job that has an alternate to install a wood panel ceiling in lieu of the ACT shown on the drawings.
The drawings reference the need to install custom-color ceiling plates but no mention is made of the need to install upright heads above the ceiling. Is upright protection required above a wood ceiling or can wood ceilings have a flame spread rating that will preclude the need for upright protection above the ceiling? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Looking for some guidance on sprinkler layout on eaves and hips. When laying out an attic, if you design with sprinklers directly under the hips, and want to stay below the 8' spacing against the slope, how does the layout work? One direction of the roof would be 4' x 7'-6" max, but the other direction of the roof would be reversed, creating a non-linear coverage area. All of it seems strange to begin with and wondering if I'm overthinking this. We typically don't design with sprinklers directly under the hips, but I'm wondering if we are over designing with too many sprinklers, etc. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
Does plastic underground pipe need to be sleeved when going under a road or driveway?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Does anyone have experience protecting buses inside a parking garage that use lithium ion batteries?
I can't find any specifics on design criteria (or perhaps even looking at clean agent) for these types of large commercial vehicles. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I come from a consulting perspective, working for contractors and architects, but I have a question that I would appreciate others' perspective on, especially other consultants and AHJs.
I've been in multiple project meetings where an architect or building owner for a warehouse or storage area has suggested (not outright said, but either hinted or suggested) that they'll just wait until the project is completed to store however they want with whatever they want to store. This is usually when we're trying to figure out commodities and design criteria for large storage areas, and the owner is far less concerned about the sprinkler system suppressing a fire and much more concerned that an ESFR system or in-rack sprinklers are 'overkill' or too expensive. A big piece of this is education and advocating for proper protection of their assets. I get that part. Many owners get that too, so I don't want to say that it's always bad, but I've just had a few projects and one here recently where a building owner directed a Fitter in the field to 'not install the in-rack sprinklers' because they didn't want them (even though it had been discussed at length), also saying that they were going to move around their plastics however they wanted after our guys left the job. I see this as a major issue. I can put it in writing, put disclaimers on the drawings, document what information we do get from the owner, and I can try to educate an owner, but ultimately its not always a situation where I'm going to convince them of anything they're not open to hearing. Part of it is legal, which I think we generally do our due diligence in that respect. But the other part is just practical - trying to create a situation where the system actually has a chance to suppress a fire. How do you navigate these situations, or recommend that I do? How do you address owners like this who might be intentionally deceiving the engineering and contracting teams to keep costs low knowing full-well that they will store whatever they want, however they want after we all leave? Is this something, as an AHJ, you want tipped off? In some cases (some of these areas) we don't have strong enforcement bodies so building owners are left a little to themselves and their insurer visits to catch anything after we're off the job. Thanks for your input, sorry for the long-winded question. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am a recent architectural graduate designing and developing a small apartment building with a robust dedicated bike storage room (in lieu of car parking). The goal is to foster sustainable, walkable, urban design.
My concern is the recent and growing occurrence of e-bike electrical fires often triggered by non-UL certified lithium batteries. As I understand it, electrical fires are a different animal than your traditional wood fuel fire, in so far as effective suppression, burn rate, etc. Does current code satisfy any electrical fire concerns? Does NFPA 13 or even 13R provide sufficient protection for tenants and occupants in this new e-bike era? Is this a topic of discussion among the ICC and code communities? Concerned and looking out for safety. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Hi all, I need help on this one:
There is a floor space in between the roof and the top story of a building. It's non-combustible construction. The floor space in-between the roof and top story is 13-ft (4 m) high with limited access, about 64,000 sqft (6,000 m²) in floor area, no occupancy or storage intended, only pipes and ducts will be in this space and the equipment will be at roof level. The architects refer to this as a concealed space. 1. Can this be considered a concealed space? 2. Are there any limitations for concealed space in terms of size? 3. Does this space requires sprinklers? Any suggestions will be highly appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the best procedure to use when testing a 3,500 gallon diesel fire pump that is equipped with a throttling/pressure governor installed on it?
My graph was well below the rated curve at 50% and 100%, but the governor seemed to disengage at 150% flow and my numbers exceeded the rated curve when we pushed this much water. I did not attempt to change the controller settings or unplug the device (if that's even possible) to disengage the forced idle at 50% or 100% but insurance isn't "buying" that the pump didn't fail. These pumps aren't more than 5 years old and are ran on a tight schedule once a week (by the way). Maintenance thinks it'll lead to faster wear and tear on the motor and I agree. All I could really do was state the facts and hope I don't have to go back out there and do the test again. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project where the architect wants the combination sprinkler/standpipe riser installed within a rated shaft with a rated door to access both the system control valve and standpipe hose valve.
Aside from the gymnastics of the installation, we can't find anything in NFPA referencing standpipes within a shaft. The AHJ is considering it without an opinion just yet. Does anyone know if this is acceptable? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are sprinklers required to be controlled by valves which are physically located on the same floor level?
Are sprinklers in high ceilings OK to be controlled by valves on the upper level, or do they need to be controlled by a valve on the same level as the floor? A project with a second, or even third-story high ceiling in a lobby would be one example of this scenario. Another example could be an entrance to an underground parking garage with an NFPA 13 system. It makes sense for valves to control the sprinklers on the level the valve is on, just wondering about a specific code reference. I know about the exception for the top of stair shafts. Thank you everyone! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a question about using galvanized pipe in wet-pipe systems. I have a building in which part of the building is wet-pipe, and part of it has a dry-pipe system using galvanized pipe in an unheated area.
Our renovation of the building is turning this space into a heated area. My initial thought was just leave the existing pipe in place, convert the riser to wet-pipe, and make any minor modifications to the system coverage as needed. As I've read more I'm not so sure. FM specifically says not to use pipe that has been internally galvanized on a wet-pipe system, and while it doesn't seem to be outright prohibited by other sources, I seem some strong recommendations against it. If there is any experience out there on the subject I'd appreciate it. At the moment I'm strongly considering replacing all system components and materials back to the base of the riser. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have received a request from an owner of a small office/warehouse (Group S-1) which is approximately 2,000 sqft to omit sprinkler drops into the office buildout portion.
The office buildout portions is about 500 sqft of the total space. There are existing sprinklers located at the ceiling level throughout the space and 1-hour partitions dividing the space from other owners. The background: This individual office/warehouse is in an inline building that is separated into multiple office/warehouse spaces, all individually owned as "office condos". The overall building (approximately 14,000 sqft) was provided with a sprinkler system throughout as it was unknown how the building was going to be divided in the future for the individual spaces. The ownership closing documents and the "condo" association that controls the building have no comments or requirements for the individual owners regarding the installation of dropped sprinkler heads into built-out areas. Since the individual office/warehouse space is per code (2015 IFC) too small to require a sprinkler system and the existing sprinkler overhead system is already in place providing protection for the space, is it OK for the owner to omit the drops into the small office area if not required by code? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a unique situation. I have no idea how to approach this design since this is a big fire hazard to me. Maybe it's not as bad as I think. We have a project where there are art installations that are made from plastic bags. Picture something like elephant legs (bigger at the ceiling, smaller at the bottom) throughout a space. They are made from plastic bags. They are attached to the ceiling on a steel grid apparatus and the steel is attached to the deck (I believe the deck is to be non-combustible). They have a similar installation in Vegas and from pictures it looks like they installed high temperature pendants 12" or more from the ceiling. I would think this is not going to help put a fire out but maybe I am wrong. Any advice would be great. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Most cities require fire flow tests before design and calculation of a sprinkler system, but I have dealt with a few cities that instead use a water modeling system to calculate the pressure and flow at certain locations.
What is the reason for this? Are there benefits or downsides to one or the other? Is one more accurate? Thanks in advance - appreciate the input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When conducting flow tests and the desired flow (gpm) for the test is not obtained via a single 2-1/2" fire hydrant outlet, should additional flow be achieved by opening an additional 2-1/2" outlet on that SAME fire hydrant, or should a single 2-1/2" outlet be opened on an ADDITIONAL fire hydrant?
So for multiple 2-1/2" outlets opening and flowing, should this be done:
I have heard people say that (A) is correct and (B) is incorrect, and vise versa. Thank you. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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