Are you allowed to have a valve off the standpipe feeding a hose valve that is not in the stairwell?
Working in a high rise building with two stairwells. It is dual fed with combination riser standpipes. On the tenant space there is a hose valve and they want a butterfly on the feed for the hose valve, always thought that was not allowed but couldn’t find it. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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Occasionally, additional hose valve connections are required due to the failure of meeting a 150-ft / 200-ft travel distance to a hose connection.
Can you put a hose valve connection on a sprinkler system without a standpipe? How do you reflect this in a hydraulic calculation? A most-remote standpipe would require 500 gpm in a standpipe calculation. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project where a foam-water system is installed for two generator rooms. The rooms are on the same floor and some distance from each other, which is also on the same floor as the fire pump, which is served by a vertical foam bladder tank.
I've read here before that it's possible to have one proportioner serving both of them, but is it possible to have one deluge valve to serve both rooms? If so, do I need to add motorized butterfly valves to regulate the flow direction? Really appreciate the input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am currently evaluating a 7-story building that is being partially renovated and has an existing standpipe system (2 standpipes), but no sprinklers. My scope was to add sprinklers to the renovated areas, creating a partially sprinklered building.
The lack of pressure is leading the AHJ to require a fire pump due the 100 psi required for the standpipe system. While the standpipe requires the fire pump, hydrant flow tests indicate that there may be sufficient pressure to supply a sprinkler system. My question is two-fold. Is there really such a thing as a non-combined sprinkler/standpipe system where they are both required? They both get their water supply from the same source. Also, can I evaluate supplying the sprinkler system through a separate riser that tees off before the fire pump, while the fire pump supplies only the standpipe, significantly reducing the size of the pump? The pump would be sized for 750 gpm total, 500 gpm @ 100 psi to the remote hose connections, and 250 gpm to the second standpipe. What would that sprinkler calculation look like? Would the sprinkler calculation remove the hose stream allowance and replace it with the 750 gpm to consider the flow to the pump/standpipes? The flow potential is there based on the hydrant flow test just not the pressure for the standpipes (and it's close for sprinklers). I'm just wondering if I can give the client and rest of the design team options. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a question in regards to hydraulic calculation and hose stream allowance being added to the calculations.
When and why are they added to your hydraulic calculations? Is this specifically required under NFPA 13 somewhere regardless if a standpipe is required or provided? Any insight or clarification would be greatly appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can a zone control valve assembly be installed downstream of another zone control valve assembly?
If there is a fire in Zone A (the primary zone), Zone A's flow switch would activate. If there is a fire in Zone B (the secondary zone), Zone A and B's flow switches would activate. Not sure whether this is permitted under NFPA 13 or 72. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I use the HASS software to design, now I've a criterion of design of 20 ESFR K-25.2 @ 75 PSI, but I'm questioning if the density requirement and area of demand that I'm considering are correct. The values are 2.18gpm/ 2000 sqft. Is this correct? Additionally, the pump that I should be considering is approximately 4500 gpm and when I try to run the program it says that the source is incapable of feeding the grid. Thank you for help.
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What is the most appropriate Commodity Classification for wood chips (used for grilling) and wood mulch (used for pet bedding)?
The packaging consists of sealed paper bags that are palletized and secured with stretch wrap (plastic film) to stabilize the load onto the pallet. My initial thoughts would be a Class III Commodity, but NFPA 13 2019 Table A20.4(b) mentions "wood patterns" as being Class IV. I'm not certain of the definition of "wood patterns". Your input and wisdom is much appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a remodel project with XL pipe and push fit fittings. When there is a leak in the fit fitting what product or method can be used to change the pipe to schedule 10 with grooved fittings? Can XL be grooved? Is a roustabout approved for XL? There is virtually no information on the internet regarding XL except for notable failures with the material. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe The 2016 and 2019 standards are allowing ESFR designs that the 2022 standard does not.
For example: A warehouse with a ceiling at 35-ft. Group A Unexpanded Exposed on floor probably to 20-ft. Sprinkler design is ESFR, (12) K16.8 pendents @ 52 psi. This was okay in 2016 and 2019, but now, 2022 does not allow for this. Does this mean they completed tests that show this 12@52 K-16.8 WILL NOT work? Is there fire testing to prove this? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a wet system. Inside the system is a walk-in freezer, which has less than 10-ft of rack storage, Class I-III commodities, protected by dry pendent sprinklers from the wet system. Ceiling height is 11'-9".
Using the chart for Miscellaneous Storage up to 12-ft in Height (Table 13.2.1 of NFPA 13, 2016 Edition), thi is to use the design curve for OH2 on Figure 13.2.1. Since the ceiling height is so low, and it's equivalent to an OH2 design curve, there's a request to apply Figure 11.2.3.2.3.1 and reduce the design area within that freezer by 37% and use the smaller hydraulic design area. However, it's not an Ordinary Hazard area, it's a Miscellaneous storage area that is equivalent to an OH2 curve. Are you permitted to use the remote area reduction for Miscellaneous Storage here? Thank you for your time. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an original 17,000 sqft building built during the 1970's which has a masonry deck on OSB boards on steel structure. The original building had a continuous gypsum board ceiling at the bottom of the trusses, and no sprinkler system. Lay-in ACT ceilings have been added over the years and a lot of the gypsum board has been damaged or removed.
Due to the exposed OSB boards, we've listed the structure as Type V-B. As part of the new project in the building, we will be adding a sprinkler system. Is there a code-compliant way to avoid sprinkler protection above the ceilings? Perhaps a post-factor spray-on fire retardant? Thank you for your input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I recently heard of an incident where the fire water return from a flow meter on a fire pump was connected low from a tank and it did not work appropriately. So as a solution they decided to connect it high on the storage tank a and somehow this configuration fixed the issue.
Both connections would have the same head due to elevation so it does not make sense to me why one would work but not the other. Why does it matter if you connect a return loop to a fire water storage tank near the top of the tank rather than near the bottom? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am running 8” and 4” water storage tank fill and suction lines above ground in an exterior utility yard. Is lateral and longitudinal bracing required for aboveground piping supported on pipe stands located outside of a building, in an exterior utility yard? Due to underground conflicts with spread footing foundations the underground piping has to be routed above ground to the final location and connection points on the tank. The pipes are supported by 1’-6” non adjustable pipe stands attached to slab on grade. This project is located in a seismic zone and the seismic force factor does not exceed 0.5Wᵖ and I am using ACI 355.2 qualified anchors as required by NFPA 13 2016 Edition. Sections 9.3.8, A9.3.8, 9.3.8.1, and 9.3.8.2. The pipe stands I am using are following the NFPA 13 2016 Edition prescriptive method detailed in sections 9.2.6.3.2, 9.2.6.4.2, 9.2.6.4.4.1, and 9.2.6.4.5.1, I’ve also attached a detail for clarification. Thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
If I have a PIV installed, is it required to be tied into a fire sprinkler system?
I work at a campus style facility with a fire water supply loop for fire sprinklers. We have a couple of buildings that do not have a fire sprinkler system, however, there is a PIV outside the buildings that are in the closed position. I am assuming they were installed for "future use" assuming a fire sprinkler system gets installed. Is there an NFPA code reference that requires the PIVs to be "in service" or used for their intended purpose, or are we code compliant with them being "for future use"? I do have a concern with responding fire units incorrectly assuming that there is a fire sprinkler system in these buildings due to the PIVs being installed. What are your thoughts? Thanks! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am running into a lot of old systems that do not have hydraulic placard and some of them are old Pipe Schedule system.
Has anyone ran into an old pipe schedule system were the fire marshal is requesting hydraulic placards and if so has anyone found a way to satisfy the requirements without surveying the entire system and running new calculations? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a fire pump room with three 75 HP main pumps that operate sequentially depending on the flow required.
Can we install all 3 controllers within a single enclosure? If not, what standard, code forbids this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe ![]() My understanding is that sprinklers are not required in a commercial warehouse that was constructed prior to the code requiring them. So, how would a requirement apply regarding Open Rack Storage and Closed Rack Storage and the requirement for in-rack sprinklers? This is a large warehouse with no sprinkler system. They are using 2x6's for rack spreaders and completely covering them with no flue space. Several issues there... what drives the requirements on the storage practices? Even though the building doesn't require sprinklers, do the code requirements regarding the rack storage apply? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are you required by NFPA 24 to enter a building underneath the foundation, or can you enter a building with the the fire service main from the side of the building?
Many are under the impression that due to the fact all illustrations in NFPA 24 show the fire main entering under the building, footing/foundation, that this suggests that it is a requirement. Please can someone shed some light on this? Regards. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have two above ground 20,000 gallon (US) PET storage tanks, used for food grade oil, located inside in a manufacturing facility, all above ground. I went through NFPA 30 back and forth, still couldn't find what sort of sprinkler protection do I need for this. Cooking oil is considered a Class IIIB liquid, and all references I could were about all other classes, but IIIB. The only reference to IIIB seems to be in smaller containers, in the rack, but no tank storage mentioned. How do I go about designing protection for the tanks? What about the surrounding area? Thanks in advance.
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Do you include a loss in your flow-through tees (the straight run) on CPVC for NFPA 13R or NFPA 13 Systems?
We're finding a loss through one software provider's default setting, whereas another by default does not include a loss on the flow-through CPVC tees. We'd like to find the correct approach. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project where window sprinklers are being used as part of a 2-hour Fire Barrier.
The engineer wants the second water source to be enough to run for two hours (that would mean we'd need about 40,000 gallon tanks) in an already-designed building. Others are arguing that the primary water source needs to meet the listing but the secondary water source can be 30-minutes as that's when the fire department would hook up and operate. What is the required duration for the secondary water supply? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I recently obtained an annual full flow fire pump flow test data via hose monsters and pitotless nozzles to open atmosphere.
I am attempting to develop a graph from scratch in Excel for the fire pump curve or honestly, find one that is already built on line where I can plug in each data point for the Actual results (Churn, 100%, and 150%) and Theoretical/Design (Churn, 100% and 150%). Does anyone know of such available graphs or advice on steps to develop in Excel (or a different program)? Thank you in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe On an exterior patio, is there anything in NFPA 13 that allows you to protect from the building to the column only? Or are we required to protect to the edge of the overhang? In this case it makes the difference in extended coverage dry sidewalls and a dry system. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I’m designing a wet system protecting storage utilizing 25.2K ESFR pendents.
I have some continuous obstructions greater than 2-ft wide (less than 4-ft wide) that require protection below the obstructions. It's under the 2018 IBC, and NFPA 13 2019 edition. The obstructions are mostly closely-spaced conduit groups. I would like to place the ESFR pendents within 3-inches to the side of the group with the deflector 6-inches below and have listed water shields installed for intermediate level rack type protection. Chapter 9 in NFPA 13 seems to allow this, but it is in a subsequent section dealing with obstructions greater than 4-ft wide. The verbiage and the annex figure do not clearly state the width of the obstruction. This protection scheme will be clearly denoted and submitted to the AHJ, but I want to get input if there are any potential issues with this design. Any questions, comments, or concerns will be greatly appreciated! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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