When I first started this forum four or so years ago now, I had hoped that it would bring together expertise from different perspectives; different roles, opinions, locations, and more. My goal was to help craft a space that was about helping find best practices and help the industry by sharing the knowledge, not by bashing an issue or the person asking the question. You all have made this community great. Really, really great. I try my best to curate good questions that we all can learn from. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes not. But I personally do learn quite a bit even on questions that I would have thought I knew all there was to know. So thank you for continuing to make this Forum excellent - all of you. With that in mind, we want to do a little bit of celebrating around here with the Top Forum Contributors in 2022. And the Top Ten Contributors are (in alphabetical order): As a thank you from our team for sharing and helping improve the industry, each Top Contributor will get a plaque like the one shown above. We'll also note the future top contributor leaderboards with a flag next to each person's name signifying their Top Contributor status.
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I am working on a NFPA 13R 3-story apartment building.
The Labor & Industries (Washington State) compliance elevator inspector is requiring sprinklers in the pit and in the machine room, because it has more than 2 occupants and it is a commercial elevator. Can someone clarify if Labor & Industries requirements do not follow NFPA standards? If they do not, do their requirement supersede adopted NFPA standards? Have others ran into similar situations like this? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When supporting pipe using trapeze hangers, is it acceptable to have the pipe resting on top of trapeze, or does it have to be hung from it?
Are there listing or approval issues associated with this? The situation involves using trapeze to hang pipe under a duct but it needs to be as tight as possible to duct work. Having the pipe on top of trapeze would accommodate our situation. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have observed forward-flow tests of backflow preventers, and fire pumps tests, that are conducted through 2.5-inch nozzles identical to the image below, but without the playpipe tip screwed onto the end of the nozzle.
Image Link The pitot reading was taken off the 1-3/4" threaded end of the nozzle where the playpipe tip gets screwed on. Is this approach acceptable, and would the GPM table for the 1-3/4" butt for converting the pitot pressure to flow be acceptable? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have observed forward-flow tests of backflow preventers, and fire pumps tests, that are conducted through 2.5-inch nozzles identical to the image below, but without the playpipe tip screwed onto the end of the nozzle.
Image Link The pitot reading was taken off the 1-3/4" threaded end of the nozzle where the playpipe tip gets screwed on. Is this approach acceptable, and would the GPM table for the 1-3/4" butt for converting the pitot pressure to flow be acceptable? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How much engine oil can be stored in a building with an Ordinary Hazard Group 2 (OH2) sprinkler system?
We're working on a repair garage and NFPA 13 (2019) classifies repair garages as OH2 in the appendix. It seems reasonable that some amount of engine oil would be allowed to be stored. However, the NFPA 13 definition of OH2 doesn't allow for flammable/combustible liquids, but EH1 and EH2 allows for some unspecified amount of flammable/combustible liquids. NFPA 13 section 26.2.1 states that sprinkler system discharge criteria for the protection of flammable and combustible liquids shall comply with NFPA 30. NFPA 30 (2021) table 10.7.1 allows for unlimited IIIB liquids to be stored in mercantile occupancies with an OH2 sprinkler system. Can this mercantile section be applied to a storage occupancy? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A client of ours operates a printing press facility and has installed a machine to collect and form dust into "bricks" to avoid venting them to atmosphere.
The machine is fed by ducts that tap into an existing dust collection system. The client asked for a quote to adjust the overhead sprinkler system because of the new ducts but I think the new ductwork and machine might require suppression of some form, as well as interacting with the existing sprinkler system at the roof. (1) Does NFPA 13 (2016 Edition) Section 11.2.3.2.2.2 indicate that the existing roof system cannot have quick response sprinklers? "Quick-response sprinklers shall not be permitted for use in extra hazard occupancies or other occupancies where there are substantial amounts of flammable liquids or combustible dusts." It's hard to tell from the floor but I believe at least some of the systems have quick response. (2) Is the dust collector ductwork governed by NFPA 13 at all? Section 22.33 Exhaust Systems for Air Conveying of Vapors, Gases, Mists, and Noncombustible Particulate Solids would not seem to apply since the particulate dust is a paper product and inherently combustible. (3) Are dust collector machines like paint booths in that manufacturers pre-coordinate requirements and access for sprinklers into the filter media? Thanks for all the guidance; I haven't seen this application before. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe When testing our flow switch, the first time, it will take 25 seconds before the flow switch activates. When we reset and start over, it takes 5 seconds for the switch to activate.
After waiting an hour to test again, the first test always takes 25 seconds for the switch to activate. Any thoughts on why? This is running on an 8-inch pipe. The flow switch on all of the 6-inch pipes work properly. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A client of ours operates a printing press facility and has installed a machine to collect and form dust into "bricks" to avoid venting them to atmosphere.
The machine is fed by ducts that tap into an existing dust collection system. The client asked for a quote to adjust the overhead sprinkler system because of the new ducts but I think the new ductwork and machine might require suppression of some form, as well as interacting with the existing sprinkler system at the roof. (1) Does NFPA 13 (2016 Edition) Section 11.2.3.2.2.2 indicate that the existing roof system cannot have quick response sprinklers? "Quick-response sprinklers shall not be permitted for use in extra hazard occupancies or other occupancies where there are substantial amounts of flammable liquids or combustible dusts." It's hard to tell from the floor but I believe at least some of the systems have quick response. (2) Is the dust collector ductwork governed by NFPA 13 at all? Section 22.33 Exhaust Systems for Air Conveying of Vapors, Gases, Mists, and Noncombustible Particulate Solids would not seem to apply since the particulate dust is a paper product and inherently combustible. (3) Are dust collector machines like paint booths in that manufacturers pre-coordinate requirements and access for sprinklers into the filter media? Thanks for all the guidance; I haven't seen this application before. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am currently in the beginning stages of design for a 200,000 sqft warehouse which will be used for production and assembly of electric generators (picture the gas/diesel trailer-mounted generator you would see on a construction site but battery powered). There will be three separate areas where the batteries will be stored.
The overhead system will be an ESFR k-25.2 system. The specs for the job are calling out a rated, freestanding, sprinklered canopy structure above the battery storage areas as an additional requirement to the overhead system which does make sense to me. Is there anyone who has advice or experience with this type of commodity and coverage of it? What code references should we be looking at, if any exist? FM Global released a study on lithium ion batteries but from reading over it they were testing smaller power-tool-sized batteries and not large battery banks. To my knowledge this is a relatively new hazard for the industry and the code requirements are having to play catch up. Again, any guidance would be appreciated. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can sidewall heads be used for water curtain application?
While typically pendent are used to provide a water curtain around a vertical opening, I am working on a project where the arrangement led to sidewall heads being preferred by the architect. NFPA 13 is not explicit about water curtain needing to be a specific type of sprinkler, it just says it should be a standard spray with 3gpm /lineal ft applied. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In the 2015 International Building Code, Section 101.2:
The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration... of every building or structure in any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures. Exception: Detached one- and two-family dwellings and multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress, and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height, shall comply with the International Residential Code. The debate: Why in the world are we going to allow them to label this design as residential? The townhouse exception is seemingly being used pretty loosely around the building department. In our college community, these structures meet the requirements of a townhouse, but with obvious intent to be student housing. After looking at code....I cant say I blame these designers. I see no way to combat their argument. They meet all the code requirements to avoid the extra costs of a 13R system and only have to add an additional layer of gyp to comply!? If I am missing something, please let me know! Maybe I just need to accept them as townhouse? It sure doesn't "feel" right. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I was recently cited by a surveyor for not having supervised control valves (isolation gate valves) on the jockey pump.
All other control valves are supervised for the riser and fire pump. I view the jockey pump as not critical or a necessary part of the fire pump and would not have an adverse effect if the jockey pump were out of service for any reason. Is there a NFPA code reference that requires supervision on jockey pump gate valves? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are reviewing a proposed indoor play structure that is taller than 10-ft in height.
Do these structures need to be tested in accordance with ASTM E1354 and NFPA 701? This project is under the California Building Code. Within CBC Section 424 - Children's play structures,
The consultant proposes the following:
I don't see this proposed structure being compliant with ASTM E1354. Is there a significant increase in fire-hazard for playground areas and structures when they are above 10-ft in height, which requires the plastics to be compliant to E1354 (and textiles and plastic foams to NFPA 701)? Thank you all very much for your time and technical input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a highrise that exceeds 400-ft in height. The engineer designed a combination riser with all of the floor control assemblies coming from one riser, and not alternating as is in code.
I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing - any way around alternating the floor control assemblies, like upper-level pumps being considered separate systems or something of the like? Looking for better understanding here and being sure I'm not missing something bigger picture. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Hi all, is anybody aware of a sealed sprinkler that is available in the market with an elongated spray pattern?
I'm looking for something specifically designed for conveyor protection. Have tried the main manufacturers (Reliable, Tyco, Viking etc.) but nothing seems to be out there. The FM data sheet (FMDS0711) suggests that they are out there. Many thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe In the corridors of an apartment building (wrap) there are fire doors that are double-egress pairs that are left-hand-reverse by left-hand reverse which follows the natural traffic pattern within the corridor. However, there are also several right-hand-reverse by right-hand-reverse in the same corridor.
Is there a requirement one way or another on which direction these are supposed to be? I informed the project manager that the egress needs to follow the natural traffic pattern. I was curious about the different flow patterns of the doors so I researched the code but was unable to locate anything in the code regarding whether it was code or not, except for the AHJ. The county where I live also agreed with me but if someone out there knows if this is code please respond. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are doing the install for a new building. The fire sprinkler underground comes in the building and they are requiring ductile pipe be used inside the building up to the backflow preventer.
Can anyone cite literature for this? I know NFPA does not require the use of back-flow prevention, but am interested in the code basis for the pipe type until the backflow preventer. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project with a Class IV commodity rack storage area. The building has a roof slope around 24% (5.5 / 12). Based on NFPA 13 2022 Edition, Section 20.9.1, one option for this case is "where storage is protected with in-rack sprinklers in accordance with one of the options in Section 25.6, provided no storage is placed above the highest level of in-rack sprinklers." The question is: if a horizontal barrier and a level of rack sprinklers are installed above the last load level, and there is not going to be any storage above this level, can a system design be done based on 25.6 omitting the ceiling sprinklers? The gap between the top of the load and the roof is about 6.5 meters in the highest area. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe A business occupancy we're working on has 550 occupants, and requires three means of egress per Section 7.4.1.2 (NFPA 101, 2018 Edition).
Section 7.5.1.1.1 indicates that egress shall be arranged such that each occupant has access to not less than two means of egress. When the three means of egress are required per Section 7.4.1.2, does access to all three means of egress need to be provided to each occupant? Or will providing access for each occupant to a minimum of two means of egress satisfy the code requirement? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have three traction elevators side by side, and the three elevators are run in a shaft with no dividing walls between the elevators.
The construction is poured-concrete with a concrete ceiling. Is this shaft considered to be "enclosed" for the purpose of omitting sprinklers from the bottom of the shaft? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe NFPA 101, Section 39.2.2.2.2* Door Locking to Prevent Unwanted Entry. Where approved, doors, other than those complying with 39.2.11.2, shall be permitted to be locked to prevent unwanted entry provided that all of the following conditions are met:
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am designing a two-story dormitory Type II-B (under 2018 IBC) with CMU walls throughout.
The floor deck consists of 5-inch composite metal deck. The corridor walls and walls between suites must be 1/2-hour (due to sprinkler exception - NFPA 13 fully sprinklered). There is also a horizontal separation between the two floors of 1/2-hour minimum. There are two stair towers which are required to be 1-hour fire rated. With the walls of the stair tower requiring a higher rating than is required between the two floors, is the floor then required to also be 1 hour? In other words, can the floor penetrating a shaft enclosure (the walls of the stair shaft will sit on the metal deck) be of a lesser rating than the actual stair enclosure walls? From what I've read regarding continuity, I'd say the floor rating would have to be 1 hour; but, I'm not clear. Please help. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We are converting approximately 100 extended coverage, ordinary hazard upright sprinklers (off of a 1x3/4 bushing) to standard spray chrome pendents (light hazard). The ceilings are approximately 6'-0" below the existing branchlines at the deck. We are planning to use "2-Stage" drops where we add a 1" double elbow ( with a 1" close nipple) off the branchline, then drop down about 5'-0" to get down near the ceiling and terminate this with a 1" plugged elbow. Then when the time comes, we will add a flexible sprinkler connector to this and fix the sprinkler in the suspended ceiling (ASTM C635 & C636). If I use a 72" flexible connector, I understand I don't need a hanger per 17.4.1.3.3.3 (NFPA 13 2019).
If I use a 23" starter piece of pipe off the bottom of the drop, would I need to catch a hanger due to the total length of this assembly? Or, since the flexible connector is 6'-0" and the starter pipe is 23" (Section 17.4.3.5.1) could I get away without an additional hanger? Not that I'm planning to do this but just curious what people think? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I am a fire sprinkler fitter a military installation. Have a question regarding low expansion foam systems with the use of Viking Grate nozzles.
Of course with the concerns of AFFF, there are many issues and decisions flying around about the existing systems we have out here in our aircraft hangars. Is it acceptable to use the Viking grate nozzles without the low expansion foam? How does this provide any fire protection? Obviously, this is not how the system was designed, in my opinion. Please help me understand how this can be acceptable. I appreciate any and all input. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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