We have a project with an air supported dome structure. It's serving around 430,000+ sqft of indoor sports.
However, I am a bit confused with the type of construction this would be clasified as. As per NFPA 5000 and IBC, an air-supported structure can be Type II-B (000), but wouldn't we be limited on allowable floor area restrictions for the site of the building? Are there any exceptions to sprinkler protection for a building like this? I would really appreciate your point of view, thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe
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We have a production facility with a roof height of 55-ft. Someone has decided that storage sprinklers would be more appropriate.
How far from the roof would it be acceptable to install K11.2 (K160) spray sprinklers? Is this approach even acceptable? Does the extreme height of the roof affect the best sprinkler height? I vaguely remember Russ Fleming did a paper on the hottest point in the fire plume being some 10 % (?) of the ceiling height from the roof. Must have been 20 years ago or more. Hopefully someone can help me with information or views on this subject on an appropriate height from the roof. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a multistory hotel building with the rooms opening to an exterior corridor. There is Exterior Insulation Finish System (EIFS) along the walls of the exterior corridor.
NFPA 13 (2022), Section 9.2.3.3 allows omission of sprinklers from exterior exit corridors where the exterior wall of the corridor is at least 50% open and where the corridor is entirely of noncombustible construction. It seems from research that EIFS is considered combustible and would require sprinkler protection along the exterior corridor. Has anyone done more research on this or has this come up before for other projects with EIFS in the exterior corridors and ultimately required sprinkler protection? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Are hydraulic placards required for NFPA 13D systems?
Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'd appreciate some advice.
What's the best way to regulate pressures on a combined sprinkler (OH2) and Class 3 standpipe system? Obviously the pressures required vary between sprinklers, 2-1/2" standpipe outlets and 1-1/2" hose rack connections. Pressure regulating valves are expensive to put in on all connections, but I was thinking about using pressure regulating valves for the 2-1/2" standpipe outlets. I think it's great that we can all share our combined experience on this great website - thanks in advance! Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe My community has a number of fire pump pressurized fire loop systems that include private fire hydrants.
These facilities are large industrial structures and require pressures in excess of 200 psi for their sprinkler systems. The hydrants are needed to provide water access within code required distances. To avoid injury to fire personnel and damage to our pumper trucks, is it possible to decrease the fire pump pressure to a manageable pressure once we have arrived on site and assessed the situation? This would allow us to operate normally while the existing sprinklers, though not at full discharge, are still adding water to the situation. I am looking for solutions that don't involve millions of dollars or running hose for a quarter mile or more. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If a stair structure is supporting the fire barriers that enclose the exit enclosure, does the stair structure have to be fire rated as well?
Looking specifically at IBC 2018 Section 707.5.1 and NFPA 101 (2018) Section 7.1.3.2. If there is a fire inside a stair, the means of egress is no longer usable and at that point are you protecting the interior of the building from the fire inside the exit enclosure? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I'm working with a city inspector who is adamant that we add a second non-rising stem valve (NRS) in the fire sprinkler service main just before the building. The first valve being in the street at the live-tap location with the roadway box.
Is a valve required on the service main before the building? The requested location would place the valve under the sidewalk, accessible by T-handle wrench only, prohibiting reliable supervision of any kind. I can't seem to find any language in NFPA 24 that I can use to argue against the second unsupervised valve. I don't see any value in the position the inspector has taken and requested a copy of the city ordinance requiring the additional valve. Installing the second valve wouldn't be a huge deal but certainly seems like an unnecessary opportunity for an unsupervised valve to get closed or fail. I would like to hear what others in this community think and if anyone has something to offer. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Has anyone designed a dry manual standpipe for a pier or dock standpipe system in the past?
My question is in regards to materials used for the pipe. With the tides rising and falling my client is struggling to find an approved material that will allow for enough flexibility. I walked an adjacent marina to our project and it looked like they used 4" heavy-duty rubber tubing to run out the standpipe lines and transitioned to steel only for the vertical 2 1/2" up to the hose valves on the dock. Any information to point us in the right direction would be helpful. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a Fire Marshal that is asking us to "show how the fill line can refill the [water supply] tank in a maximum of 8-hours, per NFPA 22 Section 14.4.2".
The tank we're proposing will be supplied by an existing well, but we do not have information on well capacity. What parameters should we be looking for on well capacity? Do we have to test for both flow and time? Is the computation on refill as simple as the flow rate (gpm) x time (8-hours) to get the contribution from the well? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have a project that is a 100,000 sqft building with an ESFR system that will be built out as offices with ceilings throughout the building.
The building and construction will all be non-combustible with no clouds or open areas. We don't know yet if all the ceilings will be rated. Does the ceiling rating have any bearing on whether upright ESFR sprinklers will have to remain at the roof? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Thanks to the Top Contributors that make the discussions here exceptional. Here are the Top Contributors for May:
From a firefighting perspective, how do do I calculate losses through hose lines?
How much water can flow through a 6-inch Yellow Storz hose line? What about an 8-inch? Is there a pressure associated with the calculation? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Water curtain using automatic sprinklers to avoid providing opening protectives - there's a lot of confusion on this.
Exception stated under Section 705.8.2 of 2021 International Building Code (OBC) states that Opening protectives are not required where the building is equipped through an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.1.1 and the exterior openings are protected by a water curtain using automatic sprinkler systems approved for that use. Can we use this exception and provide a water curtain using automatic sprinklers to avoid fire rated doors in the loading dock of a building? Is there anything else that I need to be concerned about while designing these sprinklers for the water curtain? Need more clarity here before recommending an approach. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe During a recent site visit, I conducted a 2-hydrant flow test with the assistance of a city engineer and the fire department.
The static pressure measured at one hydrant was 84 psi, and then I proceeded 650 feet downhill to the actual flow hydrant, where the pitot pressure was recorded as 70 psi. A question arises due to the city's reluctance to test additional fire hydrants. My boss believes that testing more than one outlet is necessary to achieve a residual pressure drop. However, the city claims that their water distribution system is looped and, therefore, does not anticipate any pressure drop. As a result, we are unable to calculate consistent numbers on a graph. Additionally, we have come across information suggesting that there should be a 15 to 25% drop from static to residual pressure. Is this a compliant approach? Should we be opening up more than one outlet on the flowing hydrant? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe How would you protect metal shelves that are inside single and double row racks? (photo below) The commodity is Group A plastics, and the ceiling-level is 30-ft and has K17 at 35 psi.
Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Our condo units are 23 years old. A recent inspection of the sprinklers had some rust on the exterior of the pipes near the sprinklers.
Can we wire brush these areas and spray with a rust inhibitor, or do we need to replace all those pipes? Are other inspections needed to see if any rust is inside the pipes or how thick the pipe steel remains? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe If I have a machine with a carbon dioxide extinguishing system in a room equipped with an automatic sprinkler system.
Does the carbon dioxide system panel need to be tied into main fire alarm control panel? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe From a firefighting perspective, I'm looking at determining how to calculate flow and pressure needs with hose lines.
How much water can flow through 6-inch Yellow Storz hose line? Is there a psi associated with it? How much water can flow through 8-inch Yellow Storz hose line? Is there a psi associated with it? Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe What are the minimum number of design areas required for a new sprinkler system design?
It is based on hazard classification or system type? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Contractor is proposing using a single head system using IFC 903.3.8 Limited Area Sprinkler Systems to satisfy the sprinkler requirement from IFC 5306.2.2 One-Hour Interior Room.
Oxygen cylinder storage at vet clinic, "120 gal" tanks, total of "1644 cu. ft.". Section 903.3.8 only allows LH or OH1 hazards. It was originally proposed as EH1, revised to OH1 but has not substantiated with code. OH2 comes up in multiple locations (NFPA 13-19 26.11.1.1, NFPA 400 21.2.10.2). Is there a special provision, or some other way OH1 is appropriate here? At this point the only solution appears to be relocating the room to an exterior wall which allows a "single head for cooling", which seems to not require any specific density, or to provide a full building system with OH2 in the oxygen room. Thanks for helping me sort this out. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe This may sound like a strange question, but here it goes.
Is there a way to downsize a fire water storage tank based on the refill rate supplied by the city? I know that in Houston there was a company that supplied calculations showing that the refill rate could supply the tank at a refill rate based on the flow test. Could anyone substantiate this principle? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe Can ESFR Be Used for Extra Hazard Group 2?
ust before I saw that discussion on the forum I was confronted with a nearly finished, similar situation. A new technical plant for manufacturing of large-diameter high voltage cables. Huge amount of PE in the next-to-outer layer, and the sprinkler designer have based the fire protection on ESFR due to ‘’all the plastics’’ and generally large ceiling heights – variation between 40 and 55 feet – and a wish for ‘’maximum flexibility’’, by using table values for UUP for the respective ceiling height. NFPA 13 – 2019 is to be used for the design. The manufacturing process starts with a thin single wire and ends in an obvious UUP commodity. In my mind this is mostly a production risk to be protected with spray sprinklers and density/area calculations, or CMSA-sprinkler parameters where the ceiling height permits it, especially as most of the fire load is moving cables, without automatic stop because the alarm could be undesirable or false. It was said that cables during production would be directed up towards the ceiling, turn and twist on large diameter wheels, and also have large horizontal stretches before they run down into the next machine that may put on a new metal screening or extruding the outer PE layer before PVC or similar outer layer. Obviously a multi-stage production that in the end makes one large cable from 3 or more smaller cables. As I have seen in earlier discussions, the understanding of the text in chapter 23.1.1 saying ‘’ESFR sprinkler shall be permitted to protect : …. Any storage arrangement OH1, OH2, EH1, and EH2 design criteria’’ must be vital for the understanding. I don’t feel the actual situation is a storage arrangement, but if so, what is the target for the wording design criteria? I suspect there will be ‘’longitudinal flue spaces’’ between the cables, transvers flue spaces are not possible. Some places there will be cable(s) in conflict with the minimum 300 mm horizontal distance from a storage suppression sprinkler rule. However, this is the first time I have been presented for a ‘’ceiling only’’ option with 1 or 2 intermediate levels ESFRs having water shields. And (luckily !?) someone had found the FM DS 8-9 Table 17b and put in K 480 storage sprinklers in the part of the manufacturing building with the highest ceiling. Hopefully this is not the only cable manufacturing plant in the world, and I would greatly appreciate other views on this subject. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe We have an NFPA 13 system, using residential sprinklers, in a dwelling unit that has 2-levels of smooth flat ceilings. There are two levels of ceilings (9'-0" on left, 8'-0" height on right). Image provided below: Sprinklers are hydraulically calculated at their listing with a 20 x 20 spacing, and there is not an issue providing 0.10 gpm/sqft.
See the spacing above - is this an allowable arrangement though considering how it was calculated? Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe I have a Business occupancy building that is being remodeled and new RTUs units are being installed.
There was a mechanical inspection done recently and the inspector is asking for duct smoke detectors on the supply-side of units under 2,000 CFM. The units supply air to common areas to a single floor and don’t physically share ducts or plenums. There is no smoke detector coverage since it’s a sprinklered building. We do have smoke detectors above fire alarm equipment are required. I tried searching for an answer in IBC, IFC, and NFPA standards, but couldn’t find a definite answer. Thanks in advance. Sent in anonymously for discussion. Click Title to View | Submit Your Question | Subscribe |
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